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– by Joseph Jammer Medina

Disclaimer: This post contains spoilers for Star Wars: The Last Jedi.

By this point, you likely already have your mind made up about Star Wars: The Last Jedi, and all that specific plot points that fans (including us) have spent countless hours arguing over.

However, perhaps the most debated aspect of the film revolves around Supreme Leader Snoke, who met an untimely end when Kylo Ren Darth Mauled him using Rey’s lightsaber. Many felt like this betrayed everything director J.J. Abrams set up the character in Star Wars: The Force Awakens, but The Last Jedi director Rian Johnson obviously thinks otherwise.

RELATED – Solo: A Star Wars Story Finally Gets A Synopsis

Here’s what Johnson had to say about his motivations behind that unexpected killing when speaking to Empire:

“I like Snoke as a character as Andy (Serkis) plays him. He’s delicious, evil and fun. But Kylo to me is where the interesting stuff is. And the notion of clearing the deck of the Vader/Emperor dynamic so that all bets are off in terms of how the villainy is going to play out, that to me seemed like a much more interesting thing. And it just seemed natural. If he had stopped in the middle of a scene and given a monologue, it would’ve stopped it dead in its tracks, and we would’ve cut it out in the editing room. This is not Snoke’s story.”

I will say, on a personal level, this was the most interesting part of the film to me. I really enjoyed the fact that they had the confidence to nix the Vader/Emperor dynamic, and it really changed the game in terms of how that third film will play out. Now with Snoke out of the way, we can truly take Episode IX into new territory.

What do you think of Johnson’s statements? Do you still think killing off Snoke was a bad call? Let us know down below!

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SOURCE: Empire

  • Danny B

    Totally agree with this. Of course i have some issues with parts of the movie, all fans do. I do feel that this, and the other brave decisions Rian made, gives so much more freedom to the next director and Star Wars films moving forwards

  • HaroldNMaudeDib

    Ben and Rey are the most interesting part of this story. But, everything in this trilogy flows from Snoke. He is the antagonist and catalyst for all of the conflict. He turned Ben Solo. He brought the First Order into existence. To dispatch him without any explanation of who he is, where he came from, how he did all of this and, most importantly, WHY he did it is an inexcusable failure in storytelling. This isn’t an art film. It’s not a meditation or a dissertation on the banality of evil. This is a space opera adventure story. That they went this route only reinforces my suspicion that his back story didn’t matter because he never had one and, worst of all, nobody cared if he had one. If I turned in a treatment outlining these two films I’d be embarrassed of my work and fully expect to get laughed off the lot. **Drops light saber***

    • Rad4Cap

      “without any explanation of who he is, where he came from, how he did all of this and, most importantly, WHY he did it”

      KKennedy: We need an open ended war. Who cares how we do it? Who cares if it makes sense? Story doesn’t matter. Characterization doesn’t matter. Only being able to churn out stories in an ongoing and interminable Star War matters.

    • M@rvel

      I guess you haven’t seen the original trilogy lol.

      • HaroldNMaudeDib

        We know a lot more of how and why when the emperor took over than Snoke.

        • M@rvel

          Yeah and it took us ten years before we learned about him in the prequels… Nobody knew shit about the Emperor in the OT. You really don’t know what you’re talking about

          • Kindofabigdeal

            I knew that Vader answered to the Emperor on bended knee.
            I knew that the Emperor liquidated the Senate and kept a firm rule with regional Governors.
            I knew that he was the epitome of Dark Side and seducer of young Jedi’s.
            I knew that he wasn’t as forgiving as Vader.
            After Vader loses I knew that his apprentices were disposable and he replaceable when a more stronger one came along.

          • M@rvel

            Vader kneels in ESB.
            Basically everything else you said happens in ROTJ, minus the stuff about the remnants of the Senate being swept away. And we still haven’t had the 3rd in this new trilogy.

          • Games

            So essentially you knew absolutely nothing but they get a pass. here, in a story not yet finished, it does not.

          • Rad4Cap

            Nope. We learned it in ANH. You really don’t know what you’re talking about.

          • M@rvel

            We learned what in ANH?? I’m not sure what you’re referring to….

          • Rad4Cap

            “We learned what in ANH?? I’m not sure what you’re referring to….”

            It was stated “We know a lot more of how and why when the emperor took over than Snoke” to which you replied that wasn’t until the prequels and declared “Nobody knew shit about the Emperor in the OT. You really don’t know what you’re talking about.” I simply pointed out that your claim is false. As was stated, we learned far more about the Emperor – just in ANH – than we ever learned about Snoke.

          • M@rvel

            You can keep repeating that over and over again but until you actually give supporting evidence for that claim all you have is a hollow argument….What did we learn about the Emperor in ANH other than government related things?? We didn’t even know he could even use the force until ROTJ!! Okay we know Vader answers to the Emperor along with everyone else in the Empire, we learn that he shut down what was left of the galactic senate, annddd…. oh wait that’s it… We don’t even see him in person until ESB and even then it’s via hologram…. We don’t even learn that he had something to do with the fall of Anakin Skywalker….
            Let’s see… what did we learn about Snoke JUST in TFA?? We learn that he is the leader of the First Order, he turned Ben Solo to the dark side, he’s force sensitive, he knows of the Jedi Order, Luke Skywalker, Han Solo, the Knights of Ren, I think that’s it…. Lol that’s a million more things we learn about Snoke in just THE FIRST EPISODE than we learn about the Emperor in the entire OT! You Last Jedi haters really are blind lol

          • Rad4Cap

            “until you actually give supporting evidence”

            Then I’ll repeat what I’d posted here to someone else:

            “Except the Emperor WAS explained – in ANH – as was the galaxy and his place in it etc – far more than Snoke and the galaxy and his place in it etc

            With just a few lines from Tarkin we learn there is a galactic emperor, who used to rule a galactic republic, but who has has just overthrown the galactic republic with its own military, establishing a dictatorship, and ruling the galaxy with fear – of that military and of the most deadly weapon known in existence.

            We do not know Snoke as anything but the ‘leader’ of the First Order. Is that military leader? Political leader? We don’t know what that is, how powerful it is, what political control it has, what its relationship is to the existing republic, how big any of them are, how or where they rule etc etc.

            ANH established an entire existence with a few lines. In two movies, the new Star Wars has failed to establish even the basics of its world – let alone establish how one got from the original setting to the current setting in ANY fashion.”

            “We learn that he is leader of the First Order”

            Both meaningless names, since they are divorced from any connection (explanation) of the world. Like MOST of the knowledge we have about him, it lacks CONTEXT – or worse – CONTRADICTS knowledge we have prior to meeting him.

            Put simply, knowing a “million” things about a person is not the same as knowing the person – it is not the same as “backstory”. The fact that we know Snoke wears golden slippers is not the same as knowing who he is and how he is connected to the rest of the universe. Golden slippers are not backstory.

            Snoke is merely a symptom of a problem which JJ created and Rian made FAR worse. The entire world is amorphous – nebulous – undefined.

            Since you persist in trying to insulting those who disagree, I’ll simply turn it around on you: that you THINK you are NOT “blind” because you can ‘see’ details about him is the only laughable thing here.

            Next time, leave the insults out.

          • HaroldNMaudeDib

            Palpatine came first. And that counts for a lot. Since Snoke is a poor copy of him designed to reboot this trilogy and get it to look and feel like the originals. That’s it. THat’s his purpose. He’s a marketing device.

    • Mad Barchetta

      “without any explanation of who he is, where he came from, how he did all of this and, most importantly, WHY he did it”

      Exactly describes the Emperor at the end of the original trilogy. I don’t recall hearing anyone laughing at the time.

      • HaroldNMaudeDib

        The emperor, working from within the republic, took it over and destroyed the galaxy. And there are three prequels that flesh that out. There’s also something to be said for it being the original story. Snoke, much like nearly everything in these new films, is a weak facsimile of what came before.

        Snoke’s character is so barren and empty he makes General Grievous look like fucking Hamlet.

        • Mad Barchetta

          I’ll repeat my last three words: “At the time.” There weren’t three prequels in 1983, my friend.

          Maybe if you write to Lucasfilm, they’ll promise to make three movies to cover the time period between the original trilogy and these movies just so they can flesh out Snoke.

          There are tons of classic movies that have secondary characters who are not fleshed out and really aren’t the main focus of the movie. Not every character in movies gets a backstory.

          Belloq & Toht in “Raiders of the Lost Ark”
          Captain Louis Renault in “Casablanca”
          M (prior to Daniel Craig) – a dozen James Bond movies
          Professor McGonagall – every Harry Potter movie
          Everybody – John Carpenter’s “The Thing”
          Dr. “Bones” McCoy – “Star Trek” TOS and 6 movies
          Edward I “Longshanks” – “Braveheart”

          Some of these you got to know better, some you didn’t. It happens. Toht had a total of 14 lines of English in Raiders. The point being that not every character will get the same level of background or development, and if it’s not a character whose arc is the focus of the story, then that’s ok. This isn’t a 1600-page Stephen King novel where every character gets a chapter worth of background story because the novel can be as long as the author wants it to be. it’s a movie with a limited amount of time to devote to the story and the characters. Maybe Snoke isn’t explored because he’s not WORTH exploring. He’s simply and obstacle or influence on Rylo Ken’s character arc and his part in that is now over, having pushed and belittled Kylo to the point that Kylo finally betrays him.

          People have this obsessive fascination with knowing more about Snoke, and it just baffles me.

          • agooseontheloose

            HaroldNMaudeDib has a point.

            Where does Snoke belong in the context of everything that has come and gone before.
            With the Emperor there was no Star Wars Universe built. The original trilogy is the epicenter for the SW universe and everything else after expands that universe and puts things, worlds and people into a place.
            So Snoke comes along in an already built up, existing universe and we should know where this guy belongs. Where is his place of reference to whats come before. Anything would of been better than absolutely nothing.
            Bad story telling.

          • Mad Barchetta

            “everything else after expands that universe and puts things, worlds and people into a place” Yes, we got all that world-building AFTER the original trilogy. My whole point was that, after watching the end of RotJ, we really knew nothing more about the Emperor than we currently do about Snoke. Everything else was fleshed out later. But somehow, people were able to exist with those gaps in knowledge back then without ripping the people who made the movies.

            So, what changed between then and now?

          • Kilgore Trout

            What changed is that before The Force Awakens begins the jedi (and sith) are extinct save for Luke, and then by extension Kylo. This has been firmly established and oft repeated. So who the F is Snoke? You cannot compare that to the Emperor. Nobody ever said “there is no emperor” then bam, there’s a stupid Emperor. But the star wars universe went to great length establishing just who’s left, if anybody. Then Snoke is introduced out of nowhere. That is a storytelling problem.

          • Mad Barchetta

            I don’t recall the extinction of the Sith and Jedi being firmly and often repeated.

            Nevertheless, the Jedi and the Sith represent two different philosophies or religions, for lack of a better term, that focus on the use of the Force. There is precedent for non-aligned (as in neither Jedi nor Sith) Force-users within the current cannon, most notably The Bendu from Star Wars Rebels and Chirrut Îmwe from Rogue One. Neither of them were Jedi or Sith, although I suspect Chirrut would have become a Jedi, if allowed/able. And, it stands to reason that not every Force-sensitive individual in the galaxy would be taken in by one of the two factions, were they active at the time.

            So, that all being said, I find it plausible that somone like Snoke, with a natural predilection towards using the Force could eventually hone his skills to expert level, with or without someone to train him. Even with the Jedi and Sith thousands of years in SW past, someone had to be the first of their kind.

          • Rad4Cap

            No matter how many times you ‘repeat your words’ and no matter how much snark you spew it won’t change the fact that we know less about Snoke and the Galaxy than we did about the Emperor and the Galaxy in ANH with just a few lines from Tarkin.

            We know more about Belloq and Toht and the world they inhabit and their place in it. We know more about Renoult and his work and his place in it etc etc.

            Trying to denigrate people who point out these fact says nothing about the people you attack and everything about yourself.

          • Mad Barchetta

            “we know less about Snoke and the Galaxy than we did about the Emperor and the Galaxy in ANH” That’s an opinion. Unless you care to back it up with specific facts. I’m not interested in doing that research right now.

            Meanwhile…Please tell me where I attacked and denigrated anyone. If you can’t handle a differing opinion, then you might be in the wrong place.

          • Madara7

            Oh, you can ignore Rad, denigrating people is his specialty.

            Or do as I have and block him outright.

            Anyway, back to the subject at hand, I think we’ve specifically been over this before.

            It doesn’t matter that Palpatine had no backstory fleshing him out in eps 4 –
            6 because the structure of those stories did not require it. While I could go into how they elegantly presented a galactic society in the throes of a tyrannical regime scene by scene, painting a context/backdrop in a ways and to an extent eps 7 and now 8 have failed miserably to do, but that’s neither here nor there.

            What matters is that these >are< eps 7 and 8, meaning there was a 1-6 before it. That can't be erased now, we can't pretend it away, what came before logically demands continuity with what comes after. Divorce them completely from the same enumeration if you as the writer are going to approach the story as if you were dealing with a clean slate.

            As it stands, the narrative momentum of the previous 6 films has been flushed, the thematic and narrative connections weakened. It may not bother you, but it shouldn't be any surprise there's plenty of us out there that identify this as an issue.

          • Mad Barchetta

            I could debate it further, and I kinda want to, but…nah…too late for me.

          • Rad4Cap

            “I’m not interested in doing that research right now.”

            Yet
            you make post after post claiming that we do NOT know any more about
            Snoke and his world than we did the Emperor (in the entire first
            Trilogy). Yeah. Why should you be “interested” in facts which could
            refute all those posts?

            And
            if you know so much to supposedly MAKE such declarations – both about
            Star Wars and all its characters – and all the other films to which you
            feel confident to compare them to, what “research” do you need to do?

            It is true the​
            exhaustive “research” required to look up the few words Tarkin spoke in
            TOTAL in ANH would take so much time away from your repetitious snark
            and your declaring anyone is “obsessive” for having a “differing
            opinion” from you. I understand. Typing “tarkin emperor quote” google
            is incredibly taxing.
            ​ To spare you such strain, here you go:​

            ​Tarkin: The Imperial Senate will no longer be of any concern to
            us. I have just received word that the Emperor has dissolved the
            council permanently. The last remnants of the Old Republic have been
            swept away forever.

            Tagge: But that’s impossible! How will the Emperor maintain control without the bureaucracy?

            Governor Tarkin: The regional governors now have direct control over
            their territories. Fear will keep the local systems in line. Fear of
            this battle station.

            A
            ​s
            I stated, that tells us more about the Emperor – the galaxy in which
            he exists, his place in it, and his relationship to all the other
            characters – than we ever learn about ​Snoke OR the First Order or the
            galaxy in which they all exist.

            “Please tell me where I attacked and denigrated anyone.”

            “If you can’t handle differing opinion”

            Well, that’s one example. And he’s another example of the snide sarcasm you direct at those whose ideas you do not like:

            “Maybe if you write to Lucasfilm, they’ll promise to make three movies to
            cover the time period between the original trilogy and these movies
            just so they can flesh out Snoke.”

          • Mad Barchetta

            Oh, let’s see…where to start…

            You did the research for me, so thanks! If you think those few lines actually tell the viewer significantly more about Palpatine and the Empire than what was said about Snoke and the First Order, that’s your opinion. I disagree. I read/heard – He plans to take and maintain control through violence and fear. Pretty much what I understood about the Snoke after TFA. You can research the dialogue from that too, if you really want.

            attack – verb; take aggressive action against (a place or enemy forces) with weapons or armed force, typically in a battle or war; act against (someone or something) aggressively in an attempt to injure or kill; criticize or oppose fiercely and publicly; begin to deal with (a problem or task) in a determined and vigorous way. (Ed. I left out the versions dealing with disease and sports)

            Denigrate – criticize unfairly; disparage.synonyms: disparage, belittle, deprecate, decry, cast aspersions on

            I didn’t belittle anyone. If you think wondering if someone can’t handle disagreement is denigrating someone, then I’ll have to disagree with you. If I were to resort to saying something like “You’re a whiny little fanboy.” Then, I would completely agree with you.

            “Maybe if you write to Lucasfilm, they’ll promise to make three movies to cover the time period between the original trilogy and these movies just so they can flesh out Snoke.” Ok, yeah, that was me being a little snarky. I’ll own that. Different from an attack or denigrating someone.

            Snarky – (of a person, words, or a mood) sharply critical; cutting; snide.

            Hmmm. Ok, maybe you got me there. Enjoy your win.

            More to my point, without combing through the dialogue of 5 films, I THINK I came away from TFA and TLJ knowing and understanding about as much about Snoke and I did about Palpatine after RotJ. I THINK all the hubub about Snoke is largely a product of people getting angry about not getting what they wanted. Many of them then decide to say that the fact that they didn’t get what they wanted is objectively (ie: fact-based, as opposed to subjectively, which would be an opinion) poor writing. Some of us THINK it’s not.

            I highlighted the word “think” so as to remind you that we’re discussing opinions here. Don’t like mine? I don’t honestly care.

          • Rad4Cap

            “He plans to take and maintain control through violence and fear. Pretty much what I understood about the Snoke after TFA.”

            We know WHAT the emperor took control of and how. We don’t know that about Snoke or the First Order. We don’t know ANYTHING about the current world. Not even what was established in those lines by Tarkin.

            That’s not “opinion”. That’s fact.

            With just a few lines from Tarkin we learn there is a galactic
            emperor, who used to rule a galactic republic, but who has has just
            overthrown the galactic republic with its own military, establishing a
            dictatorship, and ruling the galaxy with fear – of that military and of
            the most deadly weapon known in existence.

            We do not know Snoke as anything but the ‘leader’ of the First Order. Is that military leader? Political leader? We don’t know what that is, how powerful it is, what political control it has, what its relationship is to the existing republic, how big any of them are, how or where they rule etc etc.

            ANH established an entire existence with a few lines. In two movies, the new Star Wars has failed to establish even the basics of its world – let alone establish how one got from the original setting to the current setting in ANY fashion.

            So what you “think” is wrong. Because it is NOT “opinion” that we are talking about here. We are talking about the facts provided by the film itself. But you keep ignoring those facts. Given all of the above, you declare you only heard ‘take over’ and ‘rule by fear’. There were FAR more facts than those. Just as, in your other post with similar dismissive attitude of facts, you declare the only facts we are given about Han was that he was a smuggler and did the kessel run. And you declare the only facts we know about Yoda is that he trained Jedi for 800 years.

            FACTS are what you DISMISS as unimportant. And that’s because you aren’t here to discuss ANY facts. Your purpose here is NOT one of intellectual honest and exploration. Yours is to attack ANYONE who holds a “differing opinion” than your own. The blatant selective definitions you reference, trying to PRETEND your insults were not insults because you used more than four letter words, is evidence enough of that fact.

            You don’t support a conclusion with fact, You try to evade and diminish facts in order to support your conclusion.

            You want to declare EVERYONE is simply presenting “opinions” because that is all YOU have.

            The point is not that anyone doesn’t “like” your opinion. It is simply wrong – as the facts demonstrate.

            Saying ‘nu uh’ and ‘I don’t care’ won’t change that fact.

          • Games

            Nailed it!

        • Rad4Cap

          “Snoke’s character is so barren and empty”

          Well, to be honest, that problem isn’t limited to Snoke. We know as little about the condition of the Galaxy as we know about Snoke. There has been an intentional effort to make conditions as UNKNOWN as possible. So rather than world-building, we have had world obfuscation.

    • Kronx

      He’s an abusive evil manipulative a-hole that wants the universe to himself and has the knowledge and cunning to get it. Though we may not know where he went to high school, we can glean enough from context to get what we need.

      “If I turned in a treatment outlining these two films I’d be embarrassed of my work…” But this isn’t two films. It’s three. The big plan won’t be obvious until the last of the trilogy is released. (Although I have to admit, at one point in TLJ I was starting to wonder if they were just going to end the trilogy in the second movie.)

      Snoke is to Kylo as Luke is to Rey. Kylo and Rey will both be operating without a net so-to-speak in the final installment.

      • HaroldNMaudeDib

        I’m fine with having no Snoke in part three. But it’s beyond obvious that JJ made a Palpatine copy in his boring star wars reboot and Rian didn’t want him so we got a lame 1D character. And barely 1D. The big plan… there is no plan man. And yes, what’s to do in part 3? Series could be over after 2. He’s the main villain and motivator behind the entire post 30 year period of Return of the Jedi and he doesn’t matter>?

        • CrystalClearTruth

          Exactly. This is what the desperate LJ Apologists just don’t understand.

          • Rad4Cap

            I don’t think it’s an issue of ‘not understanding’.

        • Kronx

          In my opinion, there never should have been a Snoke. You are absolutely right when you say he’s a Palpatine copy. There are a lot of versions of the NT that could’ve been more interesting.

          Considering what we have though, Snoke has to be minimized to keep Kylo the main focus and more interesting villain.

          Unlike Vader, Kylo has no one to blame for his actions now. Whatever happens, this trilogy is no longer built around whether or not he can be saved.

          Say what you want about TLJ, but it forces Episode 9 to head into new territory by getting the Empire and Jedi callbacks out of the way.

          GAH, this site is killing my browser after whatever changes they made recently.

      • Kindofabigdeal

        It has been stated before that there is no big plan. They are literally making it up as they go along.

        • Games

          This is pretty stupid even for you. But if it makes you feel better to be ignorant, by all means, to your hearts desire.

    • SeanDon

      I wish I found Rey interesting, but to me she’s kind of bland and has no interesting history to delve into. She’s been on a boring planet and comes from poor, boring parents. I’m not really excited to see what she does next as much as wondering what will happen with the rebels, and Ben.

      Ben is the best character so far in this new trilogy which is why I was excited to delve more into how he turned fully turned and how Snoke fit in. Instead we get a 2min ‘Luke almost killed him” moment and that’s all the backstory we get in that whole thing. No only did it make Luke look bad with no real justification, but it was a quick, lazy way to give more insight into Kylo. I was hoping Snoke used the Vader family ties to talk up how powerful he was and how Luke and others were denying him his full potential, they were jealous, etc. Show that twisted growth from future Jedi with Uncle Luke to killing kids, his dad, etc.

    • Brafdorf

      Oh please. Ben and Rey are most interesting because they’re the focus of this trilogy.

      Snoke was hardly anything other than people’s favorite thing to speculate on. And still speculate on even still.

  • Tonk99

    Seems like every day I’m reading an article about Johnston ‘justifying’ why he did what he did and the choices he made in writing this film. He can make all the excuses he wants but ultimately it doesn’t change the fact that he utterly shat the bed with Ep8.

    • Jasper Oosterveld

      Exactly. I had such high hopes from the director but he failed completely.

      • FlyteTyme

        I think he’s a good director but TLJ didn’t work for me and believe me I wanted a great Star Wars movie. I don’t think the new cast are strong enough to carry the last movie unless somehow they resurrect Luke.

        • Kindofabigdeal

          The mouse will make them stronger. We will see Rose use the Force to crash a Super Dreadnaught into a Super Starkiller Base.

  • Rad4Cap

    “This is not Snoke’s story.”

    Again, that’s the complaint being made – not that there should have been meaningless backstory, but that the story Rian decided to regurgitate rendered Snoke (and thus his story) meaningless.

    Basically, all Rian is saying is: “I didn’t WANNA tell the story that JJ set up, so I didn’t”

    That has NOTHING to do with “drama” or good plotting etc. It is – as Kevin Smith states – just a big FU to what came before, nothing more.

    “Now with Snoke out of the way, we can truly take Episode IX into new territory.”

    Funny. I seem to recall that TLJ was declared to be “new” and “different” etc etc. Guess everyone got it wrong. NOW we’ll get something new and different. TLJ was just more of the same.

    • Tonk99

      I’ll say it till my dying breath: Snoke should have been Plagueis. And no, Rian it wouldn’t have ground the film to a halt to explore that idea, nor would any exposition about Snoke’s history, it’s what we fucking wanted!

      • Rad4Cap

        “Snoke should have been Plagueis”

        They certainly could have gone that direction. In fact they could have gone countless directions – and done so without ‘flipping the bird’ to JJ and those who actually liked what came before.

        That’s the problem. Not giving a damn about what came before. In fact, seemingly WANTING to actually disrespect what came before. Rian and the defenders of TLJ make psychological pleas and appeals to ‘in real life’ etc to defend a hero’s character being trashed as Rian did with Luke. Yeah. Hero’s can become child molesters, cannibals, etc. In other words, it ain’t an argument. Just because something CAN occur is not reason for it TO occur in a story. Simply because depravity exists in reality doesn’t mean it must be inflicted upon Luke in Star Wars.

        Those that make such appeals say far more about themselves than they do about anything else.

        And yes, as you indicate, Rian is simply being insulting when he says the only way to include Snoke in a story would have been through BAD story telling. THAT is what he DID. As noted, the issue is that he simply wanted to tell HIS bad story.

        • Jasper Oosterveld

          Totally agree. JJ set some stuff up but Rian did a big FU and went an 180. Luke couldn’t even kill his own father but had no issue with killing his nephew? What a load of BS 🙂

          • Nattown

            Wow. Never thought of that. Thanks.

      • RadicalAgnostic

        Snoke as Plagueis would have been terrible. Its a shitty fan idea that literally was shot down two movies ago.

        • Tonk99

          It was ‘literally’ shot down was it? Err, no it wasn’t. In no Star Wars movie has an idea been presented and then shot down. I think you mean ‘figuratively’ shot down.

          Anyway, if you’re referring to the convo between Palpatine and Anakin in RotS, then you can either take Paplatine’s story as truth or fiction. We never saw Plagueis die. As we know, in Star Wars, ‘truth’ depends largely upon your own point of view.

          You may label it a ‘shitty’ idea but it’s 1000% better than anything Rian Johnston offered.

          • RadicalAgnostic

            What part of Palpatine’s line “Before i killed him” was left open?

          • Nattown

            The part where he spoke of immortality.

          • Tonk99

            There’s no such line.

          • RadicalAgnostic

            Watch it again. He specifically states he killed him. It’s just before Anakin turns.

          • Tonk99

            No he doesn’t. Palpatine tells the story of Plagueis from tbe third person.

  • Behemothrex

    I am all for ending the stories or Luke, Leia, etc but they basically just did it off screen, oh by the way they died so lets move on. They are going to make a shit ton of Star Wars movies, so why rush it. They should have given us this final trilogy to say goodbye. For fuck sake TLJ was just a retread of tropes from the original trilogy but every time we thought we were going to get a satisfying ending he just said fuck you and did the opposite. He can back track all he wants but he might not have buried Star Wars but he was right there helping shovel the shit.

  • Triple M

    More rationalising and apologising … just go away.
    Watch as the next one is suddenly completely different.

  • Daniel Brown

    If you’re gonna lay out breadcrumbs, they should lead somewhere.

    I have no problem with Rey’s parents being nobodies, but don’t tease otherwise. I have no problem with Snoke being easily and surprisingly defeated, but don’t tease a mystery backstory.

    • Mad Barchetta

      When did they tease a mystery backstory? At any point in EITHER movie did someone talk about Snoke in a way that suggested he was anyone other than who he was?? That was a pure FAN creation.

      For the record, throughout all of SW, he never got a backstory for: Han, Chewbacca, Obi-wan, Qui-gon, Dooku, Yoda, General Grievous, Lando, Jango Fett, Boba Fett (other than we know he was a clone of Jango), Jabba the Hutt, Mace Windu.

      Haven’t heard nearly the level of complaining for any of them. I think people are mostly pissed that they don’t get to find out how accurate their theories were.

      • Nattown

        I can challenge your statement. We didn’t get backstories but we got basic credit checks: Han Solo, they gave us a brief on him to understand what he was, who he was and they did that all in the bar. Obi-Wan, no backstory but he told his own tale by speaking of Anakin. Yoda the same. However..none of these characters rule the universe. Snoke did and we didn’t get a bleep aside from him knowing the dark side. The Emporer in the original trilogy had no explanation but at least we got a look at who he was. The power he wielded, the way Vader was a bad-ass but turned into a kitten in front of him, etc. That scene in TLJ, he had like 5 armed guards and in TFA he was in a dark room chilling on a hologram. We didn’t even get a perspective put on him

        • Mad Barchetta

          Really?
          The backstory we got on Han was – I’m a smuggler. I’m a really good smuggler. My ship did the Kessel Run in 12 parsecs. That’s a backstory??
          But, even after the prequels, we don’t see how Obi-wan came to start Jedi training. We meet him at the point he is nearly done with it. And telling us he trained Anakin is about the same as we got from Snoke. Snoke trained Kylo.
          Yoda?? Really? We got that he trained Jedi for 800 years. That’s it. That’s actually about THE SAME as we learned about Snoke’s background.
          And, we got the same amount of time with Snoke that we did with Emperor., give or take a couple minutes of screen time. With both, we got: He’s evil, he’s bad-ass, he rules the Empire/First Order, he mocks our protagonist, and when it came to whether Vader/Ren would kill (or allow to be killed) Luke/Rey, Vader/Ren betrayed the Emperor/Snoke.

          I’d be more open to the beef that they recycled plot points from RoTJ than we got to know Snoke less.

          • Rad4Cap

            “The backstory we got on Han was – I’m a smuggler. I’m a really good
            smuggler. My ship did the Kessel Run in 12 parsecs. That’s a
            backstory??”

            That’s ALL you learned about Han (and yoda etc) in the OT? You either weren’t paying attention or you aren’t being intellectually honest here.

            So far the evidence supports the latter.

          • Mad Barchetta

            Nattown: “Han Solo, they gave us a brief on him to understand what he was, who he was and they did that all IN THE BAR. ”
            Me: “The backstory we got on Han was – I’m a smuggler. I’m a really good smuggler. My ship did the Kessel Run in 12 parsecs.”

            He referenced “in the bar (cantina).” I referenced the same scene. Of course that’s not what I’m saying we got from the entire OT.

            If you must interject, at least try to read the entire context of the posts.

          • Rad4Cap

            Again, that’s ALL you got even just in the bar? You STILL aren’t being intellectually honest. What a surprise.

      • Rad4Cap

        The issue isn’t a “mystery backstory” but ANY backstory.

  • Jasper Oosterveld

    The lack of inconsistency between both films is ridiculous and lazy. It’s obvious they are making it up along the way. That’s such amateur behavior for a company to also has Marvel. Marvel clearly has a point of view and sense of direction. Every new SW movie is depended on the director? There should be one writers team that creates a storyline for ALL movies. Amateur hour.

    • FlyteTyme

      Again I agree. They should have stuck with Lucas ideas for the final trilogy. The prequels may have had bad dialogue and too much CGI but at least there was a story and the characters had an arc.

  • michael99

    “Snoke should have been Plagueis”They certainly could have gone that direction. In fact they could have gone countless directions – and done so without ‘flipping the bird’ to JJ and those who actually liked what came before.That’s the problem. Not giving a damn about what came before. In fact, seemingly WANTING to actually disrespect if not destroy what came before

    • Rad4Cap

      ???

      Was there something you sought to say about my point? If so it seems to have gotten cut off. There’s only my quote in your post.

  • Jasper Oosterveld

    I read this somewhere else but totally agree: The biggest crime of the new trilogy is not putting Han, Leia and Luke in one scene. That’s unforgivable.

    • FlyteTyme

      I agree 100%. What were they thinking…

  • michael turner

    “without any explanation of who he is, where he came from, how he did all of this and, most importantly, WHY he did it”Exactly describes the Emperor at the end of the original trilogy. I don’t recall hearing anyone laughing at the time.

  • Lenin1959

    What do I think about episode VIII? Well, it made me decide to do the unthinkable: I won’t watch episode IX at the big screen and will read every spoiler (unlike before E VIII). I am not interested in a Solo movie without Harrison Ford, so I’ll pass that one, too. An Obi-Wan movie would be interesting but you never know how the Mousepire would screw this one up, too.

  • claudiomario

    bottom line is: Rian was not brought back to direct eps 9 bc of what he did w eps 8.

    • Kratos

      thats my theory too. imo when it was announced back in sept 2017 that JJ was coming back as director for episode IX just as TLJ was entering its final post production and film editing stages…they knew…behind closed doors as the suits started seeing the films final cuts and the direction it was going it was already too late to delay it…they had to have seen what an overwhelming majority of the fandom has since seen…that rian’s “vision” for SW is out of whack with established lore of the previous 7 films

      • claudiomario

        exactly right. theres no way this was not the factor. also i am thinking that rian may not actually be involved w a new trilogy but to save face they announced it. bet they have a few others also working on a new trilogy.

    • Misutā Supākoru

      Uhhh….why would KK offer him a new SW trilogy, then?

      • claudiomario

        thats what we are told.

        • Games

          You rock on with your conspiracy theories.

          • claudiomario

            hey, im not different than thise darn trailers making us think rey goes dark

  • CrystalClearTruth

    ya, total slap in the face from the hack Rian. Go play your Fake Star Wars somewhere else. Not interested.

  • Unc Sam

    “But Kylo to me is where the interesting stuff is.”

    Amongst the problems with Kylo is he can’t fight his way out of a paper bag and his villainous resume is rather embarrassingly short. He’s both unthreatening and stupid.
    RJ’s removed the most obvious route to resolving both of those qualities needed for an A-list villain.

    TLJ was an opportunity squandered to polish Kylo Ren as a principal villain.

  • Black dynamite

    I would have no problem with the shift away from the emperor/vader motif to allow more focus on Kylo Ren IF HE WAS A MORE COMPELLING VILLAIN. As of now he is just some conflicted, whiny little Darth Vader wannabe who was defeated by a girl who had NEVER received an ounce of training. Who thinks that he is a match for Rey? If/when they fight in Episode IX will there be any real question around how it will turn out?

    He has never shown any capability to be strategic, cunning or even clever in his battle with the resistance. If his assassination of Snoke is the 1st glimpse of a new, more dangerous and effective Kylo Ren, then it was washed away by his falling for Luke’s astral projection tactic in the climax.

    I hope that Episode IX will show a Kylo Ren that is a far more worthy villain, that can consistently inspire the level of skill, awe and sheer terror that leads us to believe there is no way Rey can defeat him. Demonstrate that type of ability and then I will applaud the assassination of Snoke. If we get the same immature, out of control, hyper emotional child that we have seen in the last two movies then killing Snoke was nothing more than a very clever way to off someone, but from a story perspective it will leave you feeling hollow.

    • SC Polt

      This is where I am at. All we have seen from Kylo is that of a whiny, brat millennial. This undermines the story two-fold. First, it does not make the audience fear him going into Episode 9. He’s not a compelling villain at all (although I think Driver does a good job). Second, and perhaps more importantly, it fails to sell the fact that Luke went into a hobbit hole of depression because Kylo had the dark side in him. Why should Luke feel guilty about what Kylo has become when he hasn’t really done anything evil or menacing or diabolical. Luke trained a brat. That would cover a lot of parents in the U.S., and you don’t see parents en mass going into depressions and living the rest of their lives as hermits.

  • Duck O’Death

    Snoke needed an explanation – plain and simple. The Emperor wasn’t explained in the original trilogy because Star Wars was too young for audiences to even have a context to ask that question. But a sequel trilogy that follows 6 movies, we sure as hell want to know who Snoke is because he was present in none of those previous movies. Audiences are smart enough to know that creating a new baddie out of nowhere is plot contrivance, especially when the original trilogy gave us the idea that that Luke, Leia, Yoda, Obi-Wan, Vader, and the Emperor were the only Force users in the galaxy. The galaxy is physically big, sure, but from a story perspective the galaxy needs to be shrunken down to intimately tell these people’s stories. And some of these “people” claim to be ruling the galaxy so surely they must be aware of someone like Snoke. If not, then an explanation becomes necessary to explain why an old guy this powerful is only showing up now!

    • Rad4Cap

      Except the Emperor WAS explained – in ANH – as was the galaxy and his place in it etc – far more than Snoke and the galaxy and his place in it etc

      With just a few lines from Tarkin we learn there is a galactic emperor, who has just overthrown the galactic republic, establishing a dictatorship, and ruling the galaxy with fear of the most deadly weapon known in existence.

      We do not know Snoke as anything but the ‘leader’ of the First Order. We don’t know what that is, how powerful it is, what political control it has, what its relationship is to the existing republic, how big any of them are, how or where they rule etc etc.

      ANH established an entire existence with a few lines. In two movies, the new Star Wars has failed to establish even the basics of its world – let alone establish how one got from the original setting to the current setting in ANY fashion.

  • Sy Burr

    Kylo Ren is one of the most disinteresting villains I’ve ever seen in any movie. How I miss the days when Darth Vader was the most bad @$$ being in the galaxy…

    • Unc Sam

      Agreed. Seems a shame that the final big boss for the Skywalker saga is a huffy kid.

      Ranks pretty poorly vs the rest. Perhaps above Grievous and below Dooku/Maul/Vader/Palpatine/Tarkin?

  • Games

    Nothing was known about the Emperor so the idea that it is inexcusable is false. No one had a problem with not knowing the Emperor’s motivation aside from power in the originals. Then people complained that they didn’t like the prequels when they did explain the story. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. I like the mystery. No need to explain everything. Some of the mystery is what makes him interesting. If you give him a story you water him down. He becomes a forgotten character. You leave the mystery and you get something to talk about and can be expanded in other venues like books or cartoons. Might not be for all, since we live in this internet society where things are leaked before they come out so the mystery is lost.

    • Unc Sam

      ” Then people complained that they didn’t like the prequels when they did explain the story.”

      The Emperors backstory is one of the least complained about parts of the prequels. Of course, a lot of what the prequels did was garbage but Palpatines story was a high point.

      It’s partly because the Emperors story was given context that the absence of any development for Snoke is frustrating. We’re fed tidbits of information (he got to Ben, corrupted him etc) but given no context as to how. If there was no option but to tell that story then TLJ might have worked better as Episode 9 with something in between context, substance and identity to the sequel trilogies setup.

Joseph Jammer Medina is an author, podcaster, and editor-in-chief of LRM. A graduate of Chapman University's Dodge College of Film and Television, Jammer's always had a craving for stories. From movies, television, and web content to books, anime, and manga, he's always been something of a story junkie.